Easy the technique to Navigate Substitute at Any Occupation Stage

Disruption and transformation are the contemporary same old in practically every trade. So how enact you cease sooner than the curve?  Over the last four an extended time, Bonnie Hammer efficiently tailored to massive changes in the media trade, rising from production assistant to leadership roles in broadcast, cable, and streaming. Now vice chair of NBCUniversal, she has advice on acquire observed, manufacture the factual skillsets, make orderly choices, and alter to shifting corporate and market dynamics. She’s the creator of the book 15 Lies Ladies Are Told at Work: …and the Fact We Decide on to Succeed.

ALISON BEARD: Welcome to the HBR IdeaCast from Harvard Substitute Review. I’m Alison Beard.

It’s laborious to acquire an trade this day that isn’t going thru fleet transformation. The tempo of technological change draw that we must for all time continually update our industry fashions, shift systems, and revamp our skill items. And no matter where you are to your occupation, that would possibly essentially feel difficult, even overwhelming.

One field that’s viewed immense disruption is media, and this day’s guest has spent four an extended time efficiently navigating it. By the transition to cable and then streaming, the upward thrust of the online giants competing for advertisers and loads of mergers and company reorgs, she labored her draw up from a production assistant feature on a native TV mark to become one of many leisure trade’s most highly effective gamers.

Even at the same time as you happen to don’t know her name, you realize her work. She came upon Bob Vila and helped to invent This Veteran Dwelling, gave Dakota Fanning her first gigantic starring feature, led the cable networks, USA, Syfy, Bravo, and more to 14 straight years of explain, and oversaw the creation of the Peacock Streaming channel.

Bonnie Hammer is now vice chair of NBCUniversal and creator of the book, 15 Lies Ladies are Told About Work and the Fact We Decide on to Succeed. Bonnie, thanks so mighty for joining me.

BONNIE HAMMER: I’m tickled to be here. It’s constantly fun talking with you.

ALISON BEARD: So on the starting up of your occupation, were you purchasing for a job that would possibly well attain with more than a few change in dynamism, or used to be it factual something you had to figure out to dwell to roar the tale in the trade?

BONNIE HAMMER: Let’s factual set it this draw, on the starting up of my occupation, I was purchasing for anything to enact that gave me a paycheck. I had a ardour that I started with, which used to be photography, and I figured that in a technique I’d make a living that draw. So my first jobs out of faculty were working in a darkish room at a industrial photography studio, and it led me to a photo bettering job, that used to be more or less boring too. I essentially labored at discovering something with my ardour till I tripped trusty into a situation that led me to a job, which led me to a occupation.

So I have the main one used to be giving up a dream that wasn’t main me wherever, and more or less what then turned my philosophy in life, following the opportunities, and my first opportunity wasn’t precisely shiny. I was the bottom grade production assistant on a baby’s math TV mark, on public broadcasting in Boston, actually following a canine finally of the set and cleaning up his poop. I knew it used to be a possibility. I was in a tv studio and who knew what it would possibly well in point of fact well result in, and I cleaned up the poop with a smile and realized from then on it used to be about attitude and following opportunities.

ALISON BEARD: So how did you identify those opportunities that you knew were going to handbook you in the course that the trade used to be also going?

BONNIE HAMMER: I didn’t peep at it in opposition to leaning me to the opportunities that would possibly well abet me grow, and I have that’s one of many boundaries in the draw with I have more than a few children attempting to navigate the set of job. What I did used to be apply opportunities where I’d be taught, be taught practically anything, contemporary talents, enact something I haven’t carried out sooner than, meeting contemporary those that I hadn’t met sooner than, with the hope that a mode of opportunities would lead me to the following step, pretty than seeing it as a ladder where you climb rung by rung by rung to acquire up to the head.

I have at the same time as you happen to enact that, in particular this day when industries are changing so rapid, that the probability that, that job, that situation or even that trade would aloof be there in 10 or 20 years, isn’t realistic. So for me, it used to be taking up various things that no decrease than sounded attention-grabbing or had a contemporary skillset that I would possibly well be taught, so I would possibly well expand myself. And part of it used to be veritably it used to be the most attention-grabbing thing readily accessible. So enact I not use it and enact nothing and bitch, or enact I take advantage of it and factual thought where it leads me?

ALISON BEARD: And at the same time as you happen to would possibly well thought changes looming, whether or not it used to be the upward thrust of cable or the digitization of the trade, I have you went thru seven mergers to become what’s now NBCUniversal. What did you enact to figure out those discovering out opportunities but also locations where it’s likely you’ll well be safe? How did you are attempting to cease sooner than the change?

BONNIE HAMMER: Nicely, I have before all the pieces, what folks need to enact isn’t trouble change. Substitute is going to attain abet. Whether or not you wish it or not, whether or not you are attempting to regulate it or not, your boat is going to be rocked, whether or not you enact it or the waves enact it, you’re going to acquire moist.

In our world, change is inevitable. So pretty than damage time fearing it and complaining about it and being a naysayer, my gut has constantly been embrace change. Since you do not dangle any regulate doing anything else. Yes, there’s constantly a 2d of “I’m able to’t have faith in here is going down all once more.” And as you mentioned, I’ve long gone thru seven corporate changes, eight various bosses, and in a technique aloof navigated my draw thru.

So the main thing used to be embrace it, that draw, “It’s here, what I even need to enact is figure out a map that I’m able to suit into this contemporary world.” That draw figuring out what their custom is, doing your homework, talking to folks, are they more creative than monetary-based? Are they more in the underside line than a huge hit? Attain they provide excellent feedback and criticism or are they smooth and factual watch you? So realize what the custom is and strive to unbiased rep that.

Then veritably strive to figure out where the door’s going to be open, that draw, what are your skill items? What dangle you ever carried out sooner than? What enact they need, and the draw can you match into their world? After which strive to chat to folks, acquire advice on where and the most attention-grabbing technique to suit into this contemporary custom. The minute you become detrimental, the naysayer, they’re not going to need you around. The minute you seem particular, optimistic, “I need to be taught. This is what I’ve carried out sooner than. I’d respect to suit into your world. Inform me how.” It empowers the contemporary powers that be to use you below their soar and need to can enable you grow you, and dangle you ever be part of their contemporary regime. That used to be my draw. It used to be discovering a door pretty than partitions and bounds.

ALISON BEARD: Yeah, and I have what’s so spectacular is that you’ve carried out that, not factual at the same time as you happen to were a lowly production assistant, but you’ve carried out that at the same time as you happen to were a truly senior executive, attempting to figure out what a contemporary regime would essentially feel respect and work respect.

BONNIE HAMMER: Yes, it happens at every stage, and in loads of systems it’s more straightforward at the same time as you happen to’re younger because it’s likely you’ll well slot in more than a few novel areas, but at the same time because it’s likely you’ll dangle got a mode of management and you are in a mighty more senior situation, embracing it will likely be more advanced because you’ve developed your maintain sort. And would possibly well unbiased that sort match the contemporary regime? 9 out of 10 cases, it would possibly well in point of fact perchance, and this would possibly. And I more or less joke that the reason I will likely be in a room is because I’ve been in so many rooms that I’ve learned a map where the door is, where a window is, where a crack is, to figure out one draw to slot in and join that contemporary custom.

It doesn’t mean I’m not going to dangle a squawk or I’m going to present up my squawk, or not be legit to me or my form of management. It’s factual being open to figure out how my sort can integrate with the contemporary sort, the contemporary tone. I’ve aloof constantly remained Bonnie. I’ve aloof led my group, my folks in the same draw, but I had to figure out translate their values, their bottom line, their definition of success to all of my folks so shall we aloof celebrate and enact what we enact, but dangle it translate in a map that they realize and acquire it.

ALISON BEARD: Became there ever a time, during the trade americaand downs and the mergers, at the same time as you happen to were essentially unnerved in regards to the long term? And if that is the case, how did you cease focused?

BONNIE HAMMER: You constantly trouble in regards to the long term. Americans withhold pronouncing what’s going down now in the industry is the glorious change that’s ever came about. AI is going to attain abet in, firms are restructuring, getting smaller and smaller. The real fact is that’s came about from the acquire creep. What came about with cable over the an extended time, that I was lucky ample to be in it, we veritably out did broadcast in relation to earnings because we had two sources of earnings coming in, so we were making loads extra cash than broadcast used to be making.

Then every person mentioned, Peacock or streamers at monumental, were going to completely blow away linear TV. Bet what? We’re all going to aloof dwell to roar the tale it, but in a different way. And because I’ve been around goodbye, every decade, something else used to be no doubt going to raze something else. There’ll constantly be something contemporary, constantly be something threatening it. Thought what it is, discover about it, realize it, and then strive to figure out how the two can co dwell to roar the tale at the same time as you’re navigating your technique to thought where it essentially finally ends up.

ALISON BEARD: Yeah. So I enact need to chat about NBC’s entrance to streaming with Peacock. It’s constantly advanced with contemporary technology. You don’t need to enter if it’s not going to pan out. You don’t need to be too early, but then you positively also don’t need to be too boring. NBCUniversal did start somewhat in the abet of. So how did you attain that downside as the particular person that used to be tasked with creating Peacock?

BONNIE HAMMER: Nicely, in hindsight, Steve Burke, Brian Roberts were factual to attend. On the opposite hand, for the 5 years main up to after we started, I and several other senior folks, within the NBC family, were pushing them to bounce into streaming. “We’re boring, we’re boring, we must for all time enact it. Ogle what’s occurring on this planet.” They veritably more or less listened, but not essentially, till one day Steve mentioned, “Okay, we’re going to enact this, and I need you to handbook the costs to no decrease than commence it.” And my reaction to him, rather then me being one of several who were pushing it used to be, “Why me?” I’m so not a technological buff. I’m a teach material creator and trip, I’m a frontrunner, but I was very appropriate pronouncing, “This isn’t my world.” But I have the honesty used to be what led him to position me in the situation.

Because he knew I knew lead, he knew I knew teach material, and he also knew that I didn’t would possibly well unbiased aloof be the neatest one in the room, that I will surround myself with folks who knew loads more than I did, and let them allege me and abet me grow a group that would possibly commence it.

ALISON BEARD: Talk me thru your process for making critical choices, whether or not it goes abet to inexperienced lighting fixtures a mark or hiring a key producer or making your maintain occupation switch, respect pronouncing, “Determined, I will use on launching the streaming channel.” How enact you weigh the execs and cons or command data versus instinct?

BONNIE HAMMER: This has grown over time, and the most attention-grabbing draw for me to dispute it’s the ABCs the total technique to G, of gut. I’ll start with A. Analyze. What are you attempting to enact, where are you attempting to acquire to, whether or not it’s a mark or a occupation resolution or anything else. And essentially use the time to figure out what it is you wish and why. B is brainstorming, which is my licensed thing because it’s collaborative. Glean a bunch of folks collectively and discuss it. What we constantly did with each mark sooner than we greenlit it, I had every one of my senior folks, even folks who had nothing to enact with creative, take a seat in a room, be taught the script sooner than they came in, and we would possibly brainstorm the glorious, the spoiled, what we liked, what we didn’t respect, et cetera, to factual thought where folks are coming out.

Then C, review. What are you attempting to enact versus what has came about sooner than, either to your life or other reveals that were on other networks or other streamers sooner than? Did it work? Why did it work? If it didn’t work, why did it fail? D, which I contend with moreover, acquire a satan’s recommend. It’s what most folk enact not enact, because most folk don’t need to hear detrimental stuff. Fetch somebody who is going to glean apart no matter you are selecting to enact, factual to thought where the holes are. It’s not so they’ll talk you out of it, it’s so no decrease than they’re going to present you an aspect of no matter you’re deciding that would possibly well unbiased not be to your language at that point or would possibly well unbiased not be to your thoughts. E, it’s factual the trouble that you set into what it is and discovering the experts which would be in that world.

So that you realize what the red lights, inexperienced lights are in that resolution. Any individual who already has a job, somebody who’s already produced a mark, somebody who is an professional in directing visible effects that you haven’t carried out.

F, simple, the information. You without a doubt need to know the information of what you’re doing, when put next to what has attain sooner than. After which G is gut. Belief your gut, in particular at the same time as you happen to’ve been in that world sooner than, carried out what you’ve carried out sooner than. So for me it’s using the two brains, the brain to your head and the brain to your stomach. And when collectively, it’s likely you’ll well unbiased not be assured success, but you’re positively going to limit failure.

ALISON BEARD: So it sounds respect also that gut instinct, even at the same time as you happen to’re working in an absolutely contemporary atmosphere, there are beneficial properties of your skills in various geographical regions that can record it in a truly particular draw.

BONNIE HAMMER: Fully. I even dangle one – when we were attempting to enact a mark referred to as Political Animals, which every person on the group used to be absolutely particular used to be going to be mighty success. It had Sigourney Weaver and Ellen Burstyn. We had a huge producer, we had a huge director. We did none of the ABCs of gut checking rather then test our gut. Once we obtained the ratings, we were absolutely vexed because it did worse than every other mark we had ever, ever carried out sooner than.

And the main thing I had to enact, I owned the failure. Wrote a mark to my boss, sooner than the ratings were public, mentioned, “We’re devastated. We haven’t any thought how or why this came about. We’re going to figure out what went flawed, but I factual need to abet you realize sooner than the ratings attain in officially, we blew it, factual completely blew it.”

The opposite instance used to be a mark where all of us knew, my total group, the script didn’t match USA Community. It used to be somewhat of too darkish, actor wasn’t essentially diagnosed, but he used to be attention-grabbing and quirky. Nothing about it match what we desired to enact in USA, however the director, writer, we thought, used to be distinguished. The personality fervent used to be amazing.

And we made the resolution consciously that nothing about this would possibly unbiased aloof match on USA, but it is too excellent for every other network to acquire it. And we determined we are sharp to use a calculated anguish and enact this. And what came about used to be, here is Mr. Robot, which did extremely well, used to be a monumental success for USA. The acutely aware calculated anguish labored out. And we were sharp to fail if we had to because we knew the total ABCs, the total draw thru gut, of creating that resolution and we were sharp to fail. There were no surprises there.

ALISON BEARD: And so the glory with Political Animals is that you didn’t enact A thru F, you factual did G.

BONNIE HAMMER: Upright.

ALISON BEARD: You are this particular person that’s risen to the very top of your trade, and that supposed that you went from managing little groups to mighty ones, respect more than 2000 folks. So how did you figure out that transition? You seem akin to you rely very mighty on interpersonal connection, collaboration, group custom. How enact you withhold all of that as your span of vitality will increase, and make all of those folks, who you’re managing, essentially feel as chuffed as you are in managing change in a truly advanced dynamic trade?

BONNIE HAMMER: Nicely, first it would possibly well in point of fact well be critical to withhold the values you had at the same time as you happen to were main a smaller community, that draw collaboration, caring, empathy, creating a excessive bar for achievement, but having essentially excellent conversation in that process. So it’s gleaming what your tag or your custom is for managing your group, then instructing that to all of your allege reports so they’ll push it down. There has to be consistency and an figuring out. About a of the systems I helped enact that – when I obtained into elevated groups and more than one channels that I was managing, I’d enact what I referred to as Breakfast with Bonnie. And those breakfasts would be once a month with likely about 20 in every breakfast, from executive assistants to administrators. And we would take a seat in a room, I’d enact a truly fun, simple open, I’d discuss for the time being what used to be occurring, what used to be succeeding, what used to be not succeeding within our maintain world.

After which I’d open it up to questions, and I’d actually train to folks, “This room is Vegas. No matter happens here stays here. Nothing is going to switch up to your allege boss or up to anybody elevated in my room. I need to attain what’s working and what’s not working in our division. And I know you guys are truth tellers, so record me what’s going down, what’s working, what’s not. What messages are you getting? Attain you are feeling chuffed? Attain you are feeling akin to you’re rising?” I desired to hear the fact. And at glorious somebody would expand their hand and open up and record me the fact of an space that existed or an attitude, or something that wasn’t going down that should happen. And I’d discover about what’s going down on the more junior ranges so I would possibly well repair it, or no decrease than I’d be attentive to it.

Because it wasn’t bubbling up to my stage, I didn’t be taught about it. And I obtained to clutch tons of of folks on the decrease ranges. And because I went thru each stage getting to where I’m, I liked all the pieces that folks enact on the decrease ranges that most folk don’t acquire are so critical to the product. So I did that for years and it labored extremely well. So it would possibly well in point of fact well be critical to roar your values, folks need to attain your custom, and it would possibly well in point of fact well be critical to push those values down, the total technique to the entry-stage folks moreover. If you happen to enact that, folks cease within that custom, and need to cease and grow within your world for a lengthy time.

ALISON BEARD: So it sounds akin to you’re sharp to rent folks who dangle various leadership kinds than you. What particularly enact you thought to make sure that they’re going to be the oldsters who attain challenges the draw you enact?

BONNIE HAMMER: Nicely, I have most incessantly folks hire folks resulting from skillset, or in the early phases, resulting from levels or the college they went to. Yes, skillset is a truly mighty, total smarts, intelligence, but for me it’s a high quality of a particular person. When they attain in, are they sharp to listen or are they factual going to babble about themselves? Attain they provide folks credit rating in the conversation it’s likely you’ll dangle got with them or enact they use credit rating for themselves? I thought tone. I thought somebody who has some grace. I thought somebody who I have will likely be trusted as a group member who’s sharp to collaborate. So listening pretty than talking, asking orderly questions that reveals they need to be taught, serious about me creep draw above any additional or less stage or skillset skills.

ALISON BEARD: Yeah. And at the same time as you happen to would possibly well dangle got group contributors that you don’t thought embracing change in the draw you wish them to, how enact you give them excessive feedback? What’s the principal to doing that well?

BONNIE HAMMER: Nicely, I have before all the pieces, it would possibly well in point of fact well be critical to present that feedback. And I have oftentimes, in the set of job, folks watch, they seize, but don’t essentially dangle real conversations with those that work with and for them. They veritably would possibly well unbiased not sleep for the end of 300 and sixty five days evaluate, but I don’t have that’s ample. Or not it would possibly well in point of fact well be critical to dangle the tricky conversations with folks who you concentrate on dangle the possibility to grow. And even those it’s likely you’ll well unbiased not have can grow, but it’s likely you’ll well unbiased aloof give them one other strive to thought, to let them know what’s occurring or not occurring. Seek data from them how are they doing? How enact you concentrate on you’re doing here and why? After which record them, “Nicely me record you how I thought it, and I factual need to can enable you be taught and can enable you grow.” I don’t have faith in folks can grow without somewhat of tricky contend with and being told the fact, but it would possibly well in point of fact well unbiased aloof attain in a functional, priceless, positively tonal draw.

ALISON BEARD: I essentially feel respect one real fight for managers now would possibly well be working with folks who are very, extraordinary at what they for the time being enact, but need to be taught something contemporary. As an illustration, it’s me, I’m an extraordinary editor, I’m a huge podcast host, optimistically, and I need to be taught GenAI. I need to be taught these contemporary applied sciences, but it’s simple for me to leisure on my laurels. So how enact you push those folks who are gigantic performers, to enact more and downside themselves?

BONNIE HAMMER: Nicely, before all the pieces, I constantly thought those folks who will expand their hands and train, “I need to be taught. I don’t know anything about AI yet, and what’s the most attention-grabbing technique to enact it?” It begins with a conversation that says, “You’re doing amazingly well. The entirety I ask you to enact, within your skillset, your job, your title, is big, however the realm is changing. And I have for you to grow, and I have for you to dangle a runway within this world, this firm, this skillset, you’ve obtained to start reaching somewhat of out of your comfort zone. And here’s several systems whereby it’s likely you’ll well enact it.

It’s veritably drawing discontinuance that particular person in a map that, all once more, doesn’t sound respect, “Oh my God, I’m going to lose my job if I don’t be taught this skillset,” but in a map that’s providing them the possibility. And in the event that they bounce at it, amazing. If they don’t, it’s likely you’ll well aloof give them somewhat of nudge, but in the event that they essentially don’t use you up on it, then as a frontrunner, as a boss, it would possibly well in point of fact well be critical to have faith what their limitation is.

ALISON BEARD: I factual need to teach for the file, I attended a monumental language mannequin lunch and be taught this week, and I also went to a convention where I realized about all of these AI instruments. So I’m trying. What advice enact you give children who need careers in media or every other essentially fleet-changing trade this day?

BONNIE HAMMER: My advice is to have faith that it would possibly well in point of fact well be critical to work at your price to acquire what you wish. That in roar to stand out, it would possibly well in point of fact well be critical to be viewed, that draw coming in early, raising your hands for opportunities, staying boring, not seeing anything below you, in particular in the main few years during those discovering out years –

ALISON BEARD: Yeah. A reminder that Bonnie Hammer picked up canine poo in her first job.

BONNIE HAMMER: Yeah. Yes. Did I bitch to my family and friends? Clearly I did, but after I confirmed up on the set, I did it with a smile, and anything they requested me, to flee out for 3 lattes, I did it gleaming that if I was optimistic, if I was particular, they’d want to dangle me around. And at the same time as you happen to are particular, folks are going to need you proceed to dangle you ever around. Then it would possibly well in point of fact well be critical to form. In the event you’re requested to enact something, enact it. Attain your homework, enact it well. In the event you’re going to miss a slash-off date, don’t BS about it. Mainly train, “I’m not going to dangle it in on time. That is why. I’ll positively dangle it for you by,” give a date.

Americans need to belief you, and then it would possibly well in point of fact well be critical to master the skill set, no matter it is. Then expand your hand to be taught as mighty because it’s likely you’ll well for opportunities open air of your skill set, even at the same time as you happen to’re not going to acquire additional pay for it, because that too will mark folks it’s likely you’ll dangle got the vitality, the fervour, the desire to be taught more. Be sure that you don’t creep trusty into an enviornment pretending that you realize what it’s likely you’ll well enact at the same time as you happen to can’t enact it. Seek data from questions. Learn. Inform folks what you realize and record them what you don’t. It’s very laborious to purchase abet belief, but it’s very simple to empower others to need to can enable you and allege you. I have it’s critical to dwell humble, dangle humility, even alongside with self assurance. You don’t need entitlement and conceitedness. That makes a monumental distinction in the center part of your occupation in relation to how you navigate it.

And at the same time as you acquire somewhat of bit more senior, then it essentially is the ABCs of gut in relation to how you grow, and discovering out how… Winning is extraordinary, but you also need to be taught lose, be taught from shedding, so as that it’s likely you’ll well switch forward and realize all that’s, is a discovering out skills. It used to be an obstacle, but it’s not a end signal. It’s not a plain end. Use it to downside your self to acquire one draw to purchase in a trip draw. After which in the damage, it’s factual embracing change. Because it’s going to attain abet for you it’s not critical what you enact. So be taught flee in opposition to it and embrace it.

ALISON BEARD: Nicely, Bonnie, that’s such gigantic advice. So many pearls of wisdom in this conversation and in the book. I essentially admire you coming on the mark.

BONNIE HAMMER: Alison. Thanks for having me. I constantly revel in talking with you.

ALISON BEARD: That’s Bonnie Hammer, vice chair of NBCUniversal and creator of the book… That’s Bonnie Hammer, vice Chair of NBCUniversal and creator of the book, 15 Lies. Ladies are Told About Work and the Fact We Decide on to Succeed.

And we dangle more episodes and more podcasts to can enable you manage your group, your group, and your occupation. Fetch them at hbr.org/podcasts, or search HBR and Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen.

Thanks to our group, senior producer Mary Dooe, affiliate producer Hannah Bates, audio product manager Ian Fox, and senior production specialist Steal Eckhardt. And resulting from you for paying consideration to the HBR IdeaCast. We’ll be abet with a contemporary episode on Tuesday. I’m Alison Beard.