Amazon in Seattle: The Feature of Alternate in Causing and Solving a Housing Disaster

In 2020, Amazon constructed a safe haven for girls folk and families experiencing houselessness on its campus in Seattle, Washington. The safe haven became as soon as operated in partnership with a nonprofit organization identified as Mary’s Web page and became as soon as designed to cope with what had change into an pressing downside for Seattle and a substantial amount of replacement prosperous American cities, the do communities were being displaced by an absence of cheap housing.

Amazon’s partnership with Mary’s Web page became as soon as an experiment in addressing this downside at its core, using a pair of of the company’s possess sources to fund residing web site for unhoused families. But critics argued that Amazon’s apparent charity became as soon as misplaced because the firm and varied tech giants were in point of fact making the downside worse. As another, they argued, authorities and nonprofits must tranquil clear up these societal factors.

Harvard Alternate College professors Debora Spar and Paul Healy stumble upon the feature trade performs in causing and addressing the simpler downside of unhoused communities in American cities within the case, “Hitting House: Amazon and Mary’s Web page.”

BRIAN KENNY: When the Klondike Gold Flee swept the nation in 1896, the little flow city of Seattle modified into a bustling city almost in a single day. On the heels of the Gold Flee came a shipbuilding bid, followed by a post-war bust and the massive despair. Then Boeing to the rescue, as Seattle modified into the epicenter of airplane manufacturing for the US forces in World Struggle II. A protracted time later, Boeing passed the baton to Microsoft, and Seattle found itself at heart stage for the burgeoning tech bid. Within the ensuing years, Seattle would change into the initiating pad for more than a few world brands tackle Starbucks and Nordstrom’s. However the supreme by a ways is Amazon. Since launching in 1994, Amazon has invested four and a half billion dollars within the town the do it for the time being employs 55,000 of us.Most cities would tackle to have an Amazon of their midst, but because the Gold Flee taught us all these years within the past, no longer your complete glitters is gold. This day on Cold Call, we welcome professors Paul Healy and Debora Spar to focus on their case, “Hitting House, Amazon and Mary’s Web page.” I’m your host, Brian Kenny, and right here’s Cold Call on the HBR podcast network. Paul Healy’s examine covers a host of issues collectively with white-collar crime, governance, trade ethics, and monetary analysis. Debora Spar reviews issues with gender and technology and the interplay between technological change and broader social buildings. Welcome both. It’s massive to have both of you right here.

DEBORA SPAR: It’s a massive pleasure. Thanks.

PAUL HEALY: Thanks, Brian.

BRIAN KENNY: And Paul, thanks for becoming a member of us from Barcelona. Right here is completely of you to give us your time. Paul, I’m going to hunt info from you to kick us off right here by telling us what the central downside is within the case and what your cool name will be. I know you haven’t taught the case but, but within the occasion you want to have a chance to coach it at school, how are you pondering of initiating the conversation?

PAUL HEALY: So, my ardour within the case became as soon as exposing our school students to the seek info from of homelessness within the country and around this seek info from of equity that you just raised. My sense is that virtually all of our school students haven’t spent masses of time furious by it. And so, I believed that a case tackle this would perchance perchance also be a massive arrive for them to start to imagine what their responsibilities are, how attain corporations they work for, what are their responsibilities and in point of fact how will we as a society take care of this downside, this homelessness that appears to be so intractable within the United States.

So, what would I seek info from? I have I would start in point of fact by asking college students, does any individual know any individual who has been homeless right through their lifestyles? And then I have I would in point of fact desire to start by digging into this seek info from, why is homelessness such an intractable downside within the United States? And receive the college students to start furious by that seek info from, what causes it? Why is it we don’t seem with a notion to receive our arms around solving it?

BRIAN KENNY: Deb, let me flip to you for a 2nd and seek info from, you and Paul wrote this case collectively. I’m wondering why did you to resolve to put in writing it? Why became as soon because it vital to you to seize up this subject?

DEBORA SPAR: Successfully, it’s so spirited now because we wrote it a pair of years within the past and appropriate across the the same time, Paul and I were also working collectively on what has change into a brand contemporary required direction within the first 365 days curriculum on the social aim of the company. What that direction is in point of fact about is probing the boundaries between the company and the impart. So, what’s the appropriate feature of the company in society and what more or much less sources attain corporations lift to assault societal issues, and what’s the appropriate feature of the impart? And I have this case even more so than I would’ve imagined first and foremost, it hits that nail appropriate on the head because I have my opening seek info from may perchance perchance perchance be something, and I would potentially body it more cynically than Paul because he’s a much less cynical particular person than I’m. I would potentially seek info from something tackle, “Why in heaven’s title is Amazon engaged on homelessness?” Which traditionally has been an downside that communities apprehensive about and church buildings apprehensive about and governments apprehensive about. But you don’t imagine a supply firm being spicy about homelessness. So, I have it truly blows start this downside of: what must tranquil corporations be doing and how must tranquil we as citizens and patrons, how must tranquil we imagine a firm tackle Amazon when it will get spicy a pair of downside tackle homelessness?

BRIAN KENNY: Paul, you talked about the intractability of homelessness within the United States, and I’m wondering in case you want to good give us a small bit bit more of scrutinize into what that self-discipline appears tackle. We have now by a ways the largest economy on this planet. It may perchance probably perchance perchance seem that we shouldn’t have any individual who’s homeless, but we attain. We have now masses of homeless. Can you insist a small bit bit about that?

PAUL HEALY: So good as a small bit of context right here, Seattle has the third most homeless of us within the country within the again of Los Angeles, and it’s a mighty smaller city, clearly. And in case you ogle on the of us which would be homeless, a gargantuan piece of them are families with kids. So, why does it happen? Successfully, I have that we don’t have mighty of a social security get within the United States. It’s good no longer piece of our norm, our infrastructure. And then I have there’s masses of things that form of trek into making it essentially the most spirited storm. We deregulated psychological health a few years within the past and we acknowledged we were going to attain so, and we were going to produce toughen providers for the of us with psychological health issues. And we in point of fact by no arrive did.

In trim cities, the worth of housing has truly exploded as corporations tackle Amazon, and I’m no longer blaming Amazon, but one final consequence of the tech bid and the bid in cities is that the worth of housing in trim cities has truly escalated dramatically. And that’s truly priced out masses of low-profits of us. And then on prime of that, I have that we haven’t had the willingness–of us residing in interior cities–to in point of fact change zoning felony pointers to consequence in extra housing and the constructing, advent of more housing and low-profits housing or good long-established housing in cities and suburbs. And then I have that the ultimate share shall be vital, and that’s that folk which would be homeless truly don’t have a political disclose. They’re no longer the form of of us with political energy. And so, their issues receive largely sidelined unless, by some skill they change into more mainstream.

BRIAN KENNY: But what feature must tranquil authorities be playing? Shouldn’t they be more spicy about this self-discipline?

DEBORA SPAR: Homelessness is an especially refined downside. It’s a downside of health, it’s a downside of real estate, it’s a downside of policing. It’s a downside sadly, of drug over usage. And unnecessary to claim one would tackle authorities to be a mountainous piece of it because it’s miles in quite rather a lot of a host of countries in Europe, no longer that they’re gorgeous areas, but you tend to have more low-profits housing that’s carefully backed. But it’s no longer plug that authorities alone can clear up the downside. But apologies if right here’s jumping forward a small bit bit, in convey for authorities to clear up the downside, piece of what they need to attain is change zoning felony pointers, that are working into the societal factors that Paul became as soon as talking about. But piece of what they need to attain is lift taxes or they need to generate the earnings because constructing housing and constructing social providers is costly. And I have that’s, but again, one amongst these refined ironies within the case is that on the one hand, Amazon and a pair of of the assorted corporations are stepping as a lot as the plate to give masses of charitable monies to cope with homelessness, but they’re struggling with in opposition to the taxes which would enable the authorities to cope with homelessness. There are no magic wands right here. The authorities is going to deserve to have cash in convey to cope with the downside.

BRIAN KENNY: Yeah, and we’re going to focus on that, how they’re using their leverage in ways that may perchance perchance perchance earnings them. But on the the same time, there’s masses of irony within the total story. Amazon has transformed Seattle, clearly I alluded to that within the introduction in ways honest and wicked. And I undergo in suggestions a pair of years within the past they had a sweepstakes the do they were going to start up a brand contemporary headquarters within the US and in addition they had mayors all over the United States clamoring to have Amazon located there. What would you convey a mayor who became as soon as furious by having Amazon relocate to their city?

DEBORA SPAR: Successfully, satirically, one amongst my chums became as soon as the deputy mayor and became as soon as deeply spicy about this. And even whereas she became as soon as going through it, I mean it’s miles that this double-edged sword because in case you’re a mayor, in case you’re a neighborhood chief, you more or much less deserve to desire this investment because it brings… I neglect what number of tens of hundreds of jobs, it’s going to pressure up property values and it’s going to lift more espresso bars to a neighborhood. By the the same token, it will kind the worth of residing in these cities arrive more pricey, exactly has took web site within the case of Seattle. It’s going to amplify web site visitors congestion, it’s going to amplify inquire of for the general public colleges. So, it’s one amongst these birds, in case you exhaust it, you’re then left with masses of issues. But alternatively, as we noticed every mayor within the country became as soon as racing after that.

BRIAN KENNY: Certain. Of direction. Paul, insist a small bit bit more about Seattle. I’m wondering what the economics are of residing within the town of Seattle. What attain you want to construct?

PAUL HEALY: I’m no longer plug exactly what you want to construct, Brian, but I understand it’s loads better than the minimal wage. And I have the everyday Amazon worker is incomes $110,000 a 365 days, and the everyday varied worker is incomes more tackle $55,000 a 365 days, which by US requirements that’s potentially ample to receive by or good receive by in a city tackle Seattle or in case you’ve acquired a family, it will probably perchance perchance no longer be ample to receive by. There are completely masses of of us that aren’t making that, and for them, that’s going to kind it very refined to hire a home or hire an home in Seattle.

BRIAN KENNY: So, did Amazon ogle themselves in any arrive as being the reason of the downside right here? Did they arrive to the table, I guess willingly or were they more or much less pushed into this selection? What’s the dynamic there?

DEBORA SPAR: Successfully, I have my sense, and Paul may perchance perchance have a special one, but I have it’s very human. Of us no longer frequently ever ogle themselves as causing issues, particularly when there are issues which would be multifactorial. No one precipitated, no single entity precipitated the downside of homelessness. It became as soon as a failure or complications on so many ranges. So, I don’t have Amazon noticed themselves in any arrive because the reason, I have they did ogle themselves and to their credit as being piece of the solution, however the solution they chose became as soon as a charitable one in decision to a… How must tranquil we name it, a governmental or a contribution to society-basically based fully mostly one. But I don’t know, Paul may perchance perchance have a special sense of that.

PAUL HEALY: I have that also, Deb, choosing up on that, oftentimes corporations, and I think… I don’t know unnecessary to claim, but I think that many folk in Amazon would allege to themselves that the authorities in point of fact hasn’t proved that they can clear up this downside. And the authorities’s no longer confirmed to be very effective in solving this downside. And we desire the non-public sector to produce a small bit bit of toughen and to support attain it. And I have that they’re potentially learning over time that it’s a rather more intractable downside than they had thought and that they’re no more effective at doing it than the authorities.

DEBORA SPAR: And if I could perchance perchance perchance, I desire to trek again to the example that Paul raised earlier about what’s took web site to Entire Foods in San Francisco because I have it touches on a broader downside. And we noticed this recently at an tournament we held in Latin The US, the do for a substantial amount of decades the prosperous industrialists in Latin The US and in varied areas have acknowledged factors tackle economic inequality, they’re no longer our downside. Our job as trade of us is to generate bid, generate jobs, and the authorities takes care of redistribution. But that scrutinize in Latin The US, and I think in Seattle and San Francisco, is initiating to vary because when the issues of difference change into so extreme that you just’re closing your stores and your workers don’t desire to reach again to work, it becomes piece of no longer even the accountability of the company, but it becomes piece of its trade. And but again, I have that’s what this case… All honest cases are a small bit extreme examples of a downside. I have Seattle and San Francisco are the intense examples of a broader downside we’re seeing.

PAUL HEALY: And I have on prime of that, I have you want to perchance perchance very properly be also seeing workers of many corporations announcing, “We’re no longer ecstatic, we’re no longer cosy. This isn’t the neighborhood we desire to be piece of.” And so, that puts more strain on the firm to allege, “Successfully, how will we fix this downside? How will we kind this better?” Because we desire to plot the appropriate of us. And if we’re now now no longer as a good searching space thanks to homelessness in our neighborhood, we desire to fix that or no longer no longer as a lot as be seen as contributing to fixing it.

BRIAN KENNY: So, what became as soon as Amazon’s arrive to fix this? We haven’t talked about Mary’s Web page. That’s clearly a central piece of the story as properly. What’s Mary’s Web page and how has Amazon engaged with them?

DEBORA SPAR: Successfully, Mary’s Web page is an intellectual, slightly outdated example of a nonprofit arrive to a social downside. So, Mary’s Web page became as soon as started by a girl who had skilled poverty and homelessness in her formative years and had wished to cope with that for more than a few of us. And so, it’s a traditional more or much less church-basement-basically based fully mostly nonprofit that from all the pieces all of us know has carried out a massive job, has constructed a complete bunch of beds and regarded after a complete bunch of of us, basically girls folk and children. And so, they were a massive partner for a firm tackle Amazon that wished to attain honest. And it gave Amazon the ability, no longer before all the pieces to invent a homeless safe haven themselves, that’s no longer their trade, but to toughen a firm that became as soon as already in that trade. So, finest uncomplicated in that regard.

BRIAN KENNY: Ample. So how are they working collectively? I guess, I’m searching to receive a more luminous image of how alive to is Amazon within the day-to-day operations of Mary’s Web page.

PAUL HEALY: So, Amazon doesn’t receive spicy about the day-to-day. But what Amazon did became as soon because it constructed a homeless facility that Mary’s Web page operates and in addition they constructed it within its campus. So, it’s no longer piece of the company headquarter constructing, but it’s within the campus. You invent a homeless safe haven that Mary’s Web page operates for a hundred of us or something tackle that, a pair hundred of us.

BRIAN KENNY: So, that’s an spirited arrive though. Why would they capture to invent it appropriate of their midst?

PAUL HEALY: I don’t know the answer to that to be reasonably correct, but I have it does display their dedication and it makes it more visible to of us that they’re doing something.

DEBORA SPAR: And I have that’s exactly appropriate. And I have also, despite the fact that Amazon is never any longer within the social providers trade, they’re more or much less within the real estate trade and in addition they were constructing, they had some extra web site. It became as soon as potentially… We don’t have the numbers. It’s potentially a small bit bit more economically efficient in case you’re already putting up a constructing to position up an adjoining constructing. So, I have it became as soon as better than a form of outdated but a good arrive for them to contribute to what became as soon as tranquil a one at a time operated nonprofit organization.

BRIAN KENNY: And the case, to your level, Paul earlier, the case does mention that workers would tackle to have that proximity to ogle this work unfolding in front of them. It makes them truly feel tackle the downside is being addressed to a degree. And so, that’s also another earnings for it. Let’s receive again to the tax downside that you just talked about earlier, and the ability of an organization tackle Amazon to persuade policy. We know that corporations are doing this your complete time. They’ve acquired lobbyists, there’s constantly a presence on the federal, impart and potentially native ranges by these corporations. Can you allege a small bit bit about the dynamic with the tax self-discipline in Seattle?

DEBORA SPAR: Yeah, so I mean it’s a moderately traditional case of what occurs in civic arguments. So only a pair of corporations ever desire to pay more taxes. It’s good no longer piece of the rule of thumb e-book. And governments tend to desire to tax companies because they need and desire the earnings. And particularly in a web site tackle Seattle, the do you’ve had this influx of no longer most efficient very prosperous companies, but very visible, very properly-identified companies, it’s arduous to imagine any city authorities no longer eager to receive extra cash from these companies. And it’s no longer arduous to imagine companies tackle Amazon no longer eager to pay it.

But I have what the case tries to tease out with out calling any individual villainous in this story, because I don’t have any individual is, is that there is a real understatement that Amazon is anxious to spend the the same cash on philanthropy, that they’re struggling with teeth and nail no longer to pay in taxes. Now perchance they’re making a conscious, explicit decision that we belief the nonprofit provider better than we belief the town authorities. And that would be a proper decision. It’s also particular person that I have we as citizens must tranquil be apprehensive about. Because we attain have a system that’s jam up for governments to produce social providers. And if we’re going to capture a model that’s as another a aggregate of for-profits and nonprofits, it’s a truly varied model that I’m no longer plug we as a country have form of sold into.

BRIAN KENNY: Yeah, yeah. Might perhaps they apply the the same more or much less leverage though to the tax self-discipline? Might perhaps they redirect that energy into announcing, “Hello, we desire to vary the housing policy? What can we attain to work collectively?”

DEBORA SPAR: I have they potentially may perchance perchance perchance. And I have the case touches a small bit bit that a pair of of the assorted corporations within the web site, particularly Microsoft, appear to were playing that route, in point of fact searching to work with the authorities to support lift taxes and to invent better more or much less housing. But but again, there’s no ideal solution right here.

BRIAN KENNY: Correct, appropriate. We’ve talked loads about Amazon. We haven’t talked particularly about Jeff Bezos, however the case does mention Jeff Bezos and the arrive that he began to absorb this. Paul, are you able to allege that a small bit bit?

PAUL HEALY: We wrote this as a self-discipline case, so I don’t have any deep perception as to what Jeff Bezos became as soon as furious by this, but I’m plug given his centrality to the firm that he became as soon as spicy about both the lobbying of the town authorities, the native authorities to lead plug of the taxes, but in addition seeing this seemingly as a arrive of searching to clear up the downside. So, I’m plug his fingerprints are on that.

DEBORA SPAR: And this too, and but again, repeating Paul, we don’t know anything else about Jeff’s interior most motives right here, but in case you ogle at it from the form of macro level as I tend to attain, I have right here’s an downside that deserves attention because the do we are in society appropriate now is that we more or much less appear to have it’s okay for other folks tackle Bezos and title your varied favourite billionaire to generate billions and billions of greenbacks and then give it away in philanthropy, which unnecessary to claim is relaxing, appropriate? And also you receive to be a hero, you kind all that cash and Bezos has to give away all… No one can spend as mighty cash as he has, but that’s a truly varied model than the one we had seemingly within the 1950s the do corporations paid more in taxes, the CEOs made much less and in addition they did much less philanthropy. So, I’m a small bit apprehensive about this form of hero model in decision to the civic engagement model.

BRIAN KENNY: Yeah. That makes masses of sense. So, I’m wondering, good on your complete work that you just’ve carried out, Deb, corporations and the feature of corporations in society, is there a model that makes essentially the most sense the do it involves this? So, is it somewhere in between the Amazon model and seemingly the Microsoft model?

DEBORA SPAR: Yeah. If I dare to be optimistic, I have the US is transferring a small bit bit more in direction of a model of, seemingly out of apprehension, that corporations, collectively with Silicon Valley corporations, that 20 years within the past good wished authorities to trek away for the time being are announcing, “No, we truly desire a working authorities.” Neglect whether or no longer it’s Republican or democratic, we desire a functioning authorities. We desire authorities to have care of homeless of us. We desire authorities to educate kids and we desire authorities to invent roads. And what we’re listening to in our varied work facing alumni and varied trade leaders is increased sense of, plug, we desire authorities to work, and what can we attain as trade of us? Over again, no longer to toughen a explicit birthday party or explicit candidates, to good be clear that we now have honest of us in authorities and that authorities, particularly on the native level, that we can start to invent native coalitions to focal level on these apolitical, social buildings. Luxuriate in of it as infrastructure, both social infrastructure and bodily infrastructure. We desire these things to work.

BRIAN KENNY: Correct. The commons as we’ve talked-

DEBORA SPAR: Precisely.

BRIAN KENNY: About right here reasonably a small bit.

DEBORA SPAR: We desire the commons to work.

PAUL HEALY: And I would add on prime of that, that one amongst the good things about having native governments start to work on these issues is that you just trek away rather more innovation to have web site. Moderately than having one thought of being tried across the country, you want to allow various suggestions to ogle to work on these issues and ogle which of them in point of fact start to kind a distinction.

BRIAN KENNY: Yeah. Paul, the case does insist about the general public response to this and albeit the cynicism. And all of us know that there are masses of cynics accessible, particularly questioning the motivation of an organization tackle Amazon and why would they attain this? And to your level earlier, Deb, about isn’t the trade of trade to kind cash. So, what would you allege to any individual who’s cynical about Amazon’s efforts right here?

PAUL HEALY: So, I would allege that you just want to tranquil again encouraging Amazon to strive to play a good feature in addressing this downside. That if truth be told, the downside’s no longer going to trek away if we don’t all play our piece and Amazon is going to deserve to play a part, but it’s no longer good Amazon. There is going to desire to be toughen and work on the authorities level. Nonprofit organizations are going to must tranquil be alive to. And I have that especially for something tackle homelessness, we other folks who tackle our native atmosphere and don’t desire to vary it are going to deserve to resolve that we’re sharp to hand over our quarter-acre portion with masses of web site around us and have a small bit bit more congestion in interior cities or nearer to the cities to be clear that we now have more availability of housing and that folk can afford to secure housing at a regional or hire housing at an inexpensive rate. Amazon’s no longer going with a notion to clear up the downside. So, I have you want to like your complete constituents to resolve that it’s a truly worthy downside and be sharp to kind some sacrifices to attain it.

BRIAN KENNY: Yeah. And I have Amazon’s form of self-consciousness now that they’ve engaged in this and in addition they ogle good how refined it’s miles, throwing cash on the self-discipline potentially is by no arrive going to be essentially the most spirited solution.

DEBORA SPAR: And my sense… And right here’s literally most efficient from studying the newspapers, but my sense is as they’re now constructing their 2nd headquarters in Arlington, Virginia, that they’ve long past into it with more of a capacious sense of working with the native neighborhood, the college boards, to strive to take care of the downside, bringing in all of these avid gamers in decision to letting the downside evolve to a degree the do they form of deserve to receive pulled in a more of a savior feature.

BRIAN KENNY:

Correct.

PAUL HEALY: Yeah. And there’s a firm that became as soon as started a pair of years within the past known as We Are In, which is a conglomeration of Amazon, the Gates Foundation, Microsoft, a substantial amount of the mountainous avid gamers in Seattle. They now and again were sharp to commit masses of money to support homelessness, but it collapsed. So, I have there’s a form of humility that comes from having tried this and realizing it’s miles in point of fact a truly refined downside and it’s going to desire everybody to in point of fact be alive to to kind a distinction.

BRIAN KENNY: I’ve acquired one seek info from left and I’ll seek info from the the same seek info from of every and each of you, and seemingly I will seek info from you to start, Deb. What lessons can trade leaders learn from Amazon’s arrive to this downside?

DEBORA SPAR: There’s a bunch of lessons right here, but I have it’s miles that in lessons, unless trade… And particularly high profile corporations, unless they ogle piece of their accountability as being an engagement, a healthy engagement with their communities, it’s going to pause up biting them. And so, they need to imagine their feature within the neighborhood, which traditionally has been what trade has carried out. They deserve to imagine that civic feature from the outset in decision to waiting till the issues emerge.

BRIAN KENNY: Paul, what attain you have? What can trade leaders learn from the case?

PAUL HEALY: About a lessons. One is you want to applaud Amazon in case you’re a trade chief for being conscious of the downside. Because I have masses of corporations don’t even ogle the downside. And I have you want to give Amazon some credit for searching to cope with it and recognizing that they attain truly feel that they’ve acquired a civic accountability right here, which I have masses of corporations don’t imagine ample. So, I have there’s a lesson there for corporations to start furious by if Amazon cares about this, must tranquil we be furious by it? And then the third may perchance perchance perchance be seemingly a approach of humility. Amazon hasn’t been ready to clear up this downside. It’s solved quite rather a lot of the issues, and it’s been ready to attain finest worthy things. It hasn’t solved this downside, and which good goes to display the downside’s intractability, and a level of humility for corporations in these forms of scenarios I have is price noting.

BRIAN KENNY: Yeah. Debora Spar, Paul Healy, thanks for becoming a member of me on Cold Call.

DEBORA SPAR: Thanks, Brian.

PAUL HEALY: Thanks.

BRIAN KENNY: When you revel in Cold Call, you want to perchance perchance tackle our varied podcasts, After Hours, Native weather Rising, Deep Cause, IdeaCast, Managing the Future of Work, Skydeck, and Ladies folk at Work. Procure them on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you hear, and in case you want to perchance perchance have a minute to rate and review us, we’d be grateful. When you want to have any suggestions or good desire to allege hey, we desire to listen to from you. Electronic mail us at coldcall@hbs.edu. Thanks but again for becoming a member of us. I’m your host, Brian Kenny, and also you’ve been listening to Cold Call, an reliable podcast of Harvard Alternate College and piece of the HBR Podcast Network.